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Originally posted by M.C warior

1. crit chance
2. spell dmg
3. staty

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I was playing with numbers yesterday and noticed something very disturbing, Crit Rating is completely overvalued in the itemization system. I'm not just talking about a little bit, I'm talking to the point where it is completely Broken.

There was a great stickied thread in the Euro Forums where a mage worked out how much damage was equal to 1 crit. The number was around 10. The Formula is:

Q u o t e:
The formula to calculate this is:
"X+damage"=3.5*C2*"Base DPS"/(C1*(100-miss+crit*C2) )* ("talented cast time"/"untalented cast time") * 1/"other"

Where base DPS is:
"Base DPS"= (min+max) / (2 * "talented cast time") + "+damage" * C1 / 3.5 * ("untalented cast time"/ "talented cast time") * "other"
Use the addon theorycraft to get this value in an easier way.

C1 depends on what talents you have and what spell it is, it boils down to C1 = (100 + "Total % modifiers from talents")/100
So for a firespell with firepower C1=1.1, for a frost spell 1.06 or 1.09 depending on if you have arcane instability.

C2 is a critical hit modifier, ie how much damage your crits add. For a untalented spell it's 50/100= 0.5, for a talented frost spell it's 1. For a talented fire spell it can be 1.1-1.8 depending on the surrounding enviroment. ~1.1 for a single mage and no debuffs on the target, 1.3 for a single mage with the scorch debuff accounting for stackable ignites, 1.50 for a fire mage in a raid with CoE and other fire mages, 1.8 for a mage in a raid with other mages and someone keeping nightfall up on the target.

"Other" is other modifiers. Spells with a slow effect like frostbolt only gain 95% from +damage so for any frost spell "other" is 0.95. For AOEs the value is 0.33, for AOEs with a slow it's 0.33*0.95



http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=47014890&sid=1&pageNo=1

Now this value does scale and it was taking more damage to equal that crit as gear was scaling up but the issue is that under the current itemization it is NEVER worth it to take +Crit Rating over +Damage.

Run the numbers for yourself if you don't believe me. I worked out that with my base gear that 12.5 damage was equal to 1% crit. Which means that 12.5 damage is equal to 22.1 crit rating at level 70, yet in the itemization 12 damage is equal to 10 crit rating . This is easily seen by the PvP gems.

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=3822
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=3824

Spell Crit due to Intellect scales at a decent rate. My 60 mage (live) gets 1% crit per 60.51int, my friends 64 mage is 60.83 int per 1% crit and my 70 mage is 67.89 int per 1%, those numbers are based on all 3 mages having the same amount of Intellect, 407. The formula for intellect per crit must be somewhat complex since the values seem to change based not only on level but also on the actual amount of Int, there is probably some base amount and then some scaling from there but it's completely off-topic anyway (looking at the numbers again it seems as if there is a guaranteed 1% to crit and it scales from there). So between 60 and 70 there is about a 12% drop-off in effectiveness for int in terms of crit percentage. However between 60 and 70 there is a 57.9% drop-off in effectiveness for Crit-rating and throughout the leveling +damage always has a constant value.

In the end it all comes down to, how much is a crit percentage worth? What will improve your dps more 100 damage or 3.77% crit? Cause thats the current ratio. Even a full fire mage has to see that 100 damage is worth a great deal more then 3.77% crit. Compare Briarwood Reed to Eye of the Beast, under the old system 2% crit vs 29 damage, they used to be somewhat comparable depending on your spec. Then as you level up 29 damage is still 29 damage but that Eye is only worth 1.27% crit at level 70.

Crit Rating is a great idea, and I can see where it was needed, because Crit% needed to be broken into a smaller value so that you could have more varied itemization. The issue is not with 14 crit rating = 1% crit it's with the fact that crit rating scales down SO much on the way to 70. There should be some scaling to account for gear getting better and 1% crit being worth more damage but base damage didn't get that much higher. Based on the values for Intellect and with the difference in Base spell damage it should be 16 crit rating per 1% (at 70) not 22.

So for all you mages wondering where all of your dps went, try switching into your highest +damage pieces and ignore the +crit rating stat entirely (espeecially in regards to sockets) and see what happens. I did that and I went from 535 damage and 21.19% crit (without molten armor) to 664 with 15.04% crit so is 6% crit worth 129 damage? With a 33/0/28 spec (which rewards crit over damage more then other frost specs) my dps in the damage gear is 599.5 while in the crit gear it's 577, which is a huge difference. Thats 55 damage per frostbolt or the equivalent of gaining 67 more +damage (keeping crit rate equalized) or more dps then you gain going from netherwind to enigma (if you only look at those 5 pieces and ignore the set bonuses completely).

I guess I should just be happy I figured this out in Beta since there is no way I am going for Scyer Rep when TBC goes live since 13 crit rating is definitely not equal to 15 damage and 18damage/10crit is far superior to 12damage/15crit. I really hate to think of all the grinding it would have required to go from Scryer to Aldor rep if I had noticed this a month after TBC had shipped.

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Originally posted by M.C warior

Mno tak to je slusna davka na cteni :) du na to .. jinak jsem na Allakhazamu nasel pekny setik :) http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=649

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Originally posted by -Mike-

4seth:jestli je to z bety, tak tam asi nepocitaj -10% spell damage coefficient u vytalentovanejch frostb. a fireb.

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Originally posted by JerzeeG

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Originally posted by -Mike-

4seth:jestli je to z bety, tak tam asi nepocitaj -10% spell damage coefficient u vytalentovanejch frostb. a fireb.

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hadam, ze tohle brzy zase zrusi, pac to je demence nejvyssiho stupne..

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Originally posted by JerzeeG

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Originally posted by -Mike-

4seth:jestli je to z bety, tak tam asi nepocitaj -10% spell damage coefficient u vytalentovanejch frostb. a fireb.

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hadam, ze tohle brzy zase zrusi, pac to je demence nejvyssiho stupne..

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Originally posted by Gurrshael

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Originally posted by JerzeeG

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Originally posted by -Mike-

4seth:jestli je to z bety, tak tam asi nepocitaj -10% spell damage coefficient u vytalentovanejch frostb. a fireb.

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hadam, ze tohle brzy zase zrusi, pac to je demence nejvyssiho stupne..

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Mága jsem sice nehrál, ale talent, který za 5/5 zvýší dmg output (a navíc scaluje úplně se vším!) + manacost u fireballu o 16.6% a u frostboltu dokonce o 20%, mi přijde vzhledem ke pozici ve stromě (hned na začátku) dost silný. Takže proto možná teď ten nerf, když má každé pako kotel spelldamage z nových itemů v BC.

Samozřejmě předpokládám spammování toho kouzla nonstop. Možná se pletu a mág dělá dmg trochu jinak, méně monotóně, pak mě opravte :)

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Originally posted by Aragorn
nerek bych ani popel kdyby stejnym zpusobem nerfli i ostatni castery, ale to ze takhle nerfli jen magy JE demence...

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Originally posted by Grewen

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Originally posted by Aragorn
nerek bych ani popel kdyby stejnym zpusobem nerfli i ostatni castery, ale to ze takhle nerfli jen magy JE demence...

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omg mag whinuje ze mu sebrali 10% spelldmg bonusu z jednoho kouzla, neskutecne se bavim zkus si zahrat jinou classu a porovnej ji treba v dmg s "nerfnutym" magem ;)

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Originally posted by -Mike-

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Originally posted by Grewen

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Originally posted by Aragorn
nerek bych ani popel kdyby stejnym zpusobem nerfli i ostatni castery, ale to ze takhle nerfli jen magy JE demence...

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omg mag whinuje ze mu sebrali 10% spelldmg bonusu z jednoho kouzla, neskutecne se bavim zkus si zahrat jinou classu a porovnej ji treba v dmg s "nerfnutym" magem ;)

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jakou classu myslis? rogunu? locka? dw shamyho? shadowmaga?

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Originally posted by Eagle

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Originally posted by -Mike-

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Originally posted by Grewen

quote:

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Originally posted by Aragorn
nerek bych ani popel kdyby stejnym zpusobem nerfli i ostatni castery, ale to ze takhle nerfli jen magy JE demence...

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omg mag whinuje ze mu sebrali 10% spelldmg bonusu z jednoho kouzla, neskutecne se bavim zkus si zahrat jinou classu a porovnej ji treba v dmg s "nerfnutym" magem ;)

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jakou classu myslis? rogunu? locka? dw shamyho? shadowmaga?

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protwara

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Originally posted by -Mike-

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Originally posted by Grewen

quote:

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Originally posted by Aragorn
nerek bych ani popel kdyby stejnym zpusobem nerfli i ostatni castery, ale to ze takhle nerfli jen magy JE demence...

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omg mag whinuje ze mu sebrali 10% spelldmg bonusu z jednoho kouzla, neskutecne se bavim zkus si zahrat jinou classu a porovnej ji treba v dmg s "nerfnutym" magem ;)

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jakou classu myslis? rogunu? locka? dw shamyho? shadowmaga?

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Originally posted by -Mike-
jakou classu myslis? rogunu? locka? dw shamyho? shadowmaga?

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Originally posted by tan
Tiez je otazka na co budes dany gear ..na pve je lepsie +dmg, pvp +crit , ci uz kvoli aggru problemu , ale hlavne mozny burst dmg ktory je v pvp ziadany (podstatne je protivnika cim skorej zabit, ako predbehnut ho v dmg. ked ti to spravne critne na zaciatku nemas problem :)

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Originally posted by -Mike-

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Originally posted by Grewen

quote:

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Originally posted by Aragorn
nerek bych ani popel kdyby stejnym zpusobem nerfli i ostatni castery, ale to ze takhle nerfli jen magy JE demence...

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omg mag whinuje ze mu sebrali 10% spelldmg bonusu z jednoho kouzla, neskutecne se bavim zkus si zahrat jinou classu a porovnej ji treba v dmg s "nerfnutym" magem ;)

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jakou classu myslis? rogunu? locka? dw shamyho? shadowmaga?

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Originally posted by Grewen

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Originally posted by -Mike-
jakou classu myslis? rogunu? locka? dw shamyho? shadowmaga?

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jakoukoli :) porovnej si moznost delat dmg (jak burst tak staly)+ schopnost prezit + redukci agra. at pocitam jak pocitam, vychazi mi mag nejlip ze vsech ;)

nevim jak u vas, ale nasi magove maji zatim jen neco malo pres +600 spelldmg gear bez buffu. ten vas nerf jim sebral na vytalentovanym frostboltu/fireballu kolem 90 dmg noncrit, pri hitu 1300+ nic co by vas zbouralo ;)

ted trosku ontopic: http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=10953&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq :)

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