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Shemiramoth
Moderator
4339 Posts |
 Posted - 17/10/2006 : 08:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakhen
a) 10k hp nedám dohromady ani u patchwerka (njn horda)
b) frostnovu dostávám na 90% když mám full hp takže zregeneruju prd
c) nevím o tom že bych kdy měl bloodcraze po frostnově, jsi si jistej že ho nova vůbec spouští?
a) v TBC klidne. Na lvl 61 dostanes cca 230HP. Prectes si to v jine casti tohoto fora. Takze na lvl 70 budes mit jako crit warr 8000HP v soucasnym lvl 60equipu. Kolik asi budes mit v lvl 70 equipu? Pocitej sam.
b) blbost, rikas to jako by jsi na maga utocit vzdycky s full HP, navic mit 90% a mit 100% je docela rozdil nemyslis?
c)Bloodcraze spousti jakykoliv crit. FN musi critnout. Megadeath napsal idealni situaci. |
- If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.
- When you can't run you crawl, when you can't crawl, when you can't do that, find someone to carry you.
- Achiever 27%, Explorer 67%, Killer 27%, Socializer 80%
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Edited by - Shemiramoth on 17/10/2006 08:38:30 |
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 09:14:53
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uz ted lidi na forech pisou, ze na lvl70 maj s tank gearem 10k hp bez buffu
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JerzeeG
Moderator
4364 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 10:49:54
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
uz ted lidi na forech pisou, ze na lvl70 maj s tank gearem 10k hp bez buffu
muze se zdat, ze konecne nebude kazdy v PvP jednohubka.. ale to jste nekoukali, ze napr. frostbolt rank 15 ma v zakladu cca 3.5K dmg (to je s +dmg a critem nejakych 9k)
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Jerzee <Mor do Kuli> |
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Eagle
Average Member
2225 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 11:12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by JerzeeG
quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
uz ted lidi na forech pisou, ze na lvl70 maj s tank gearem 10k hp bez buffu
muze se zdat, ze konecne nebude kazdy v PvP jednohubka.. ale to jste nekoukali, ze napr. frostbolt rank 15 ma v zakladu cca 3.5K dmg (to je s +dmg a critem nejakych 9k)
no to s 10k prezijes ... a jeste te to vyleci za 1300hp |
UO, SWG, WoW, EVE, DF, LoL
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Marigold
Senior Member
3590 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 11:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemiramoth
a) v TBC klidne. Na lvl 61 dostanes cca 230HP. Prectes si to v jine casti tohoto fora. Takze na lvl 70 budes mit jako crit warr 8000HP v soucasnym lvl 60equipu. Kolik asi budes mit v lvl 70 equipu? Pocitej sam.
Co jsem četl tak 7-8000 hp má na lvl 70 cloťák... |
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 12:38:04
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ted nekdo psal na forum:
quote:
6800 in dps gear, 10,004 in tank/stamina gear at lvl 67.
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 12:40:08
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WereHamster
Junior Member
982 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 12:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
To je tohle lance?
Ice Lance - Rank 1
Requires Level 66
150 Mana30 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Deals 146 to 186 Frost damage to an enemy target. Causes triple damage against Frozen targets.
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 13:00:27
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| ano ano, to je ono... "Causes triple damage against Frozen targets." |
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celdric
Average Member
1613 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 13:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
ano ano, to je ono... "Causes triple damage against Frozen targets."
no ted jsem se se zajmem podival co to je ta ice lance :-) a musim rict, ze frost mag bude dost brutalni...bo frostbite+shatter+icelance = papa... a kdyby to jo kor neslo tak FN to jisti... |
no mmo
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Warlord
Junior Member
892 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 13:08:22
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| aha takze uz zadny frostbolt, kdo by to castil 2,5s kdyz tu mame lance ktery se casti polovinu casu, ze? .. :) |
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celdric
Average Member
1613 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 13:11:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
aha takze uz zadny frostbolt, kdo by to castil 2,5s kdyz tu mame lance ktery se casti polovinu casu, ze? .. :)
a hlavne si vem, ze do frostbiteu se ti jich taky vejde o neco vic nez frostboltu...a to budes ve stunu...proti kouzlu co dela 3x tolik dmg proti nominalu a pres 50% sanci na crit... ehm...
FN by se teoreticky mela rusit damagem (nebo je to spis napsany v popisku a obcas jsem si vsim ze se mi target trhnul...)ale muzu rict, ze ten frostbite procuje "celkem casto"... |
no mmo
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Edited by - celdric on 17/10/2006 13:11:59 |
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Rakhen
Junior Member
917 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 13:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Marigold
quote:
Originally posted by Shemiramoth
a) v TBC klidne. Na lvl 61 dostanes cca 230HP. Prectes si to v jine casti tohoto fora. Takze na lvl 70 budes mit jako crit warr 8000HP v soucasnym lvl 60equipu. Kolik asi budes mit v lvl 70 equipu? Pocitej sam.
Co jsem četl tak 7-8000 hp má na lvl 70 cloťák...
Což má vypovídací hodnotu asi stejnou jako množství kafe u mě v hrnku - pokud neřekneš s jakým equipem a která classa. Toho 6.2k hp co mám normálně v pvp eq má běžně i srovnatelně equipnutej rogue, warlock mívá i víc, hunter mívá i víc... |
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Mefisto
Junior Member
767 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 13:58:12
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6.2k se za rogua sklada HODNE blbe :)
myslim ze za rogua se ani nedostanes pres 6k
sbiral sem sta itemy z pve co to slo a dostal sem se na takovejch 5400-5500 za cenu totalne gimplejch statu
pvp itemy by me vytahli tak na 5800, vic imo ne a i tka bych byl vazne hodne gimplej v dodge, armoru critu i ap
ad dd) sta ocividne stoji jen polovinu itempointu co predtim tudiz. se da pocitat s takovym 30-40% narustem hp ( jak na green tak na epic gearu ) |
"The time for desperation is upon us. Let's play." |
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Colldor
Gimp
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 14:30:06
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| Tak panove, ten predelany Arms tree je mazec :)) Ze by zas warr hitoval jako truck jak pred rokem s AR? :p |
Colldor, Allerious, Turrin Bagalmon [UO - DP] (retired)
Colldor, Enforcer <CzA> [Anarchy Online] (retired)
Kremilek, Troll Warrior <Zdechliny> [WoW] (retired)
Colldor, Zealot <Skull> [WHO] (retired) |
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spajdr
Moderator
3400 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 14:52:19
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až si většina lidí koupí datáč, tak to zase nerfnou  |
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 15:17:12
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| imho ten nerf bude tak pomalej jako byl doposud, aby se vyrovnala (normalizovala) dmg s itemama, ktery teprv do hry pridaj, neboli ted rank14 zbrane davaj stejnou dmg jako pred rokem a pul arcanite reaper - to neni tak strasny nerf-tempo ;) |
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Warlord
Junior Member
892 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 15:19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Colldor
Tak panove, ten predelany Arms tree je mazec :)) Ze by zas warr hitoval jako truck jak pred rokem s AR? :p
uz se na ten datac tesim, zase nejaky oziveni pro maina.. alti me moc neba... BTW mohli by pridat treba treti trade skill, to by bylo imba :) |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 15:29:04
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beztak to nerfnou - treba i tim ze equip nebude tak silnej (crit)
jo treti trade skill by dat mohli ale nedaji..k cemu by pak clovek musel expovat twinky |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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Shad3
New Member
277 Posts |
Posted - 17/10/2006 : 18:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Mefisto
6.2k se za rogua sklada HODNE blbe :)
myslim ze za rogua se ani nedostanes pres 6k
ale jo, da se to... viz. muj CT profile - Test, dostal bych se i prez 6k, ale proc brat AQR nad clawem z Sapphirona :p
nicmene, 6.2k je ted asi nerealny |
Trance addicted <3 |
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kundihrabka
New Member
126 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 09:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Shad3
quote:
Originally posted by Mefisto
6.2k se za rogua sklada HODNE blbe :)
myslim ze za rogua se ani nedostanes pres 6k
ale jo, da se to... viz. muj CT profile - Test, dostal bych se i prez 6k, ale proc brat AQR nad clawem z Sapphirona :p
nicmene, 6.2k je ted asi nerealny
Realne je i neco nad 6.3k, ale ses pak gimp jako prase co ma 24% crit, 27% dodge a 770 AP.
Tech Vasich 6.2k life by vypadalo asi takto http://ctprofiles.net/4134827 Na kolik to je vyhodne si muze udelat kazdy svuj usudek. |
To, ze Buh nikdy nebyl neznamena, ze neni treba se Ho zbavit. |
Edited by - kundihrabka on 18/10/2006 09:28:11 |
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JerzeeG
Moderator
4364 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 10:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by WereHamster
quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
To je tohle lance?
Ice Lance - Rank 1
Requires Level 66
150 Mana30 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Deals 146 to 186 Frost damage to an enemy target. Causes triple damage against Frozen targets.
ehm, ten tripl damage, to proto je tam ten IL trikrat ? 
quote:
Originally posted by Warlord
quote:
Originally posted by Colldor
Tak panove, ten predelany Arms tree je mazec :)) Ze by zas warr hitoval jako truck jak pred rokem s AR? :p
uz se na ten datac tesim, zase nejaky oziveni pro maina.. alti me moc neba... BTW mohli by pridat treba treti trade skill, to by bylo imba :)
anebo by mohli ubrat druhy trade skill - to by bylo teprve "imba".. |
Jerzee <Mor do Kuli> |
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 10:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by JerzeeG
ehm, ten tripl damage, to proto je tam ten IL trikrat ?
ne, ten je tam proto, ze to kouzlo ma cast time jako scorch ;) |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 15:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
quote:
Originally posted by JerzeeG
ehm, ten tripl damage, to proto je tam ten IL trikrat ?
ne, ten je tam proto, ze to kouzlo ma cast time jako scorch ;)
no myslim, ze magovy presne takove kouzlo chybelo - nicmene by si zaslouzilo CD tak 2-5s
ono kouzlit CoC kdyz nekoho chytim do FN i kdyz je to 1 clovek prijde dost draho |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 15:33:35
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| no tak pro takovy ucely byl predtim scorch |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 15:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
no tak pro takovy ucely byl predtim scorch
nebyl, scorch ti jako frost magovy neda crit za 1k behem 2s |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 15:44:41
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| coz je jedine dobre /balance |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 15:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
coz je jedine dobre /balance
ja to nejak nechapu? balance je kdyz scorch neda 1k dmg frozen targetu....ale to ze to da CoC je taky balance?
nevim
kazdopadne kouzlo s kratsim castimem pro frost maga rozhodne chybelo a tohle je apson nejaka zmena...skilled magove to budou jiste vyuzivat a budou s tim hodne silni, kdezte tem ostatnim lamam to moc nepomuze |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 16:21:44
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kdyby to bylo jak u priesta ze by to melo 8sec CD a dalo se to pres talenty snizit ;)
takhle semi to zda jako hodne silnej nastroj (coz se mi zda i scorch pro fire maga) |
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celdric
Average Member
1613 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 16:28:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Seth
quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
no tak pro takovy ucely byl predtim scorch
nebyl, scorch ti jako frost magovy neda crit za 1k behem 2s
no ale scorch crituje pres shatter taky...akorat nevim kolik dela na 60ce dmg nominalne... |
no mmo
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 16:36:46
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| pres shatter critujou vsechny kouzla, coz o to, ale sam o sobe scorch nema zrovna velkou dmg bez talentu na firepower atd., taky se na nej nevztahuje 100% dmg bonus u critu jako na frost kouzla |
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JerzeeG
Moderator
4364 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 22:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
coz je jedine dobre /balance
prave ze vice rychlejsich a slabsich kouzel je lepsi, nez kdyz mag (a nejen on) udela prask a konec, target down.. |
Jerzee <Mor do Kuli> |
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2006 : 23:05:26
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no jak se to veme, ty "vetsi" kouzla jsou snadneji prerusitelny, treba s warrem mam problemy dat pummel na flash heal, protoze to je 1.5sec cast coz je bud doba po kterou mam global cd nebo proste lag > pummel
vetsi kouzlo prerusis snadneji - muzes hodit granat, trefit counterspell/silence/earthshock etc
long cast kouzla vyrovnavaj jejich nebezpecnost tou zranitelnosti behem castu |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2006 : 10:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
pres shatter critujou vsechny kouzla, coz o to, ale sam o sobe scorch nema zrovna velkou dmg bez talentu na firepower atd., taky se na nej nevztahuje 100% dmg bonus u critu jako na frost kouzla
ehm chlapy vy jste asi magy moc nehrali co?
pres shatter vam fire kouzla rozhodne necritnou...
pokud ma firepower talent tak je to dokonce 210% crit (ne 150% jako standard) |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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Aragorn
Average Member
1001 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2006 : 10:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Seth
quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
pres shatter critujou vsechny kouzla, coz o to, ale sam o sobe scorch nema zrovna velkou dmg bez talentu na firepower atd., taky se na nej nevztahuje 100% dmg bonus u critu jako na frost kouzla
ehm chlapy vy jste asi magy moc nehrali co?
pres shatter vam fire kouzla rozhodne necritnou...
pokud ma firepower talent tak je to dokonce 210% crit (ne 150% jako standard)
spis ty uz si maga dost dlouho nehral ;)
shatter zvysuje sanci na crit do frozen targetu u vsech kouzel od revampu magu
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Kallath <Mor do Kuli> |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2006 : 10:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Aragorn
spis ty uz si maga dost dlouho nehral ;)
shatter zvysuje sanci na crit do frozen targetu u vsech kouzel od revampu magu
kurva fakt? omg tak to jsem slusne tele, sorry
a ja si rikal ze mi to ted tak pekne crituje o 106
jsem myslel ze je to tou zmenou int/crit
no co uz ted  |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2006 : 11:08:41
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| moje posledni sedesatka je mage |
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JerzeeG
Moderator
4364 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2006 : 11:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
no jak se to veme, ty "vetsi" kouzla jsou snadneji prerusitelny, treba s warrem mam problemy dat pummel na flash heal, protoze to je 1.5sec cast coz je bud doba po kterou mam global cd nebo proste lag > pummel
vetsi kouzlo prerusis snadneji - muzes hodit granat, trefit counterspell/silence/earthshock etc
long cast kouzla vyrovnavaj jejich nebezpecnost tou zranitelnosti behem castu
jo a kdyz to nevyjde u maleho, tak se nic moc nedeje a jedes dal..
kdyz ti to nevyjde u velkeho, tak bezis z krchova.. |
Jerzee <Mor do Kuli> |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2006 : 11:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
moje posledni sedesatka je mage
/no life detected? |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 01:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by WereHamster
quote:
Originally posted by MegaDeath
To je tohle lance?
Ice Lance - Rank 1
Requires Level 66
150 Mana30 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Deals 146 to 186 Frost damage to an enemy target. Causes triple damage against Frozen targets.
Tohle je prej praxe:
quote:
Alright. I'm MS arms specced, Second Wind/Death Wish/3/3 TM. I don't have Imp Intercept yet, and it'll help, but here's my most flagrant issue with this matchup:
Spell Reflect is great in theory for whenever a Mage frost novas you. Instead of being helpless as they destroy you with shatter/ignite/whatever while you're frozen, you can defend yourself to a point. Naturally, the fact that it only gives you one charge and they can lay 6 spells into you before you close to melee range again is an issue, but that's to be expected--they have to be able to cast on us or it's not a fair matchup, obviously.
So here's what happens when you duel a frost mage:
They frost nova you, and you swap to sword and board and hit spell reflect. They ice lance. This spell crits for 2,000 damage from an average mage against a Frozen target. It crits at least 60% of the time because of Shatter and their crit gear. It is DEATH to a Warrior, and they can SPAM it.
But it is not death to a Mage. When we reflect a spell on a Mage, we do _not_ get any of the talent bonuses that they get. We don't get a Shatter bonus, so the spell that was going to crit us for 4k barely scratches them, especially since they all have a Frost/Fire ward up depending on spec. And even worse, with Ice Lance, we don't get the triple damage bonus. The spell that's critting me for 2,000 damage and is an instant cast hits them for 230. What is the point of even trying to spell reflect? It's worthless against Fire mages -- Fire blast, Blast Wave, Dragon's Breath can't be reflected, and Scorch is still pretty viable to use, especially with Fire Ward -- and against a Frost Mage, they can just spam Ice Lance us to death, especially with Frostbite going off so often when we hit them. This is horrible.
It seems like all the talents and abilities we got to address the egregious 1v1 imbalances with certain classes, namely Second Wind for fighting Hunters/Mages and Spell Reflect for Warlocks/Mages don't work nearly anything like intended. We end up wasting all the extra rage we get from Second Wind switching back and forth between stances vainly trying to deflect the 2k instants. It's odd--I only silently thank Second Wind for being great when a Rogue is on me, and how often does an Arms warrior with a 93 DPS weapon really worry about a Rogue?
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Shemiramoth
Moderator
4339 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 06:24:12
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To se dalo cekat, takze me to neprekvapuje. Mage = IWIN class. To je obecne znamy. Stejne se da delat mnoho veci. Napriklad s granatem jsem si dost polepsil proti magum. Trapne spise je, ze musim pouzit vsechno co existuje, abych vyhral, kdezto vetsine jinych classu staci pouze to co maji. Pit flasku? Procpak. Mit engineering? Na co? Shodim engineering a jsem dead proti vetsine classu. Parada.
Neva. Ja si nejak poradim. Treba nam engineerum daji 5sec granat, ktery nebude stat 10goldu jeden. |
- If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.
- When you can't run you crawl, when you can't crawl, when you can't do that, find someone to carry you.
- Achiever 27%, Explorer 67%, Killer 27%, Socializer 80%
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Edited by - Shemiramoth on 23/10/2006 06:24:48 |
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JerzeeG
Moderator
4364 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 11:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemiramoth
Neva. Ja si nejak poradim. Treba nam engineerum daji 5sec granat, ktery nebude stat 10goldu jeden.
myslis arcane bomb ?
co treba thorium granaty ? mam plnou banku dense sutru a thorium baru a je mi lito to davat za 1g, resp. 2g do AH.. |
Jerzee <Mor do Kuli> |
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Shemiramoth
Moderator
4339 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 12:23:05
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| thorium ma taky 3s stun |
- If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.
- When you can't run you crawl, when you can't crawl, when you can't do that, find someone to carry you.
- Achiever 27%, Explorer 67%, Killer 27%, Socializer 80%
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Rahman
Moderator
4368 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 14:26:48
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| Docela by mne zajimalo, jak presne bude fungovat devastate (41 pts prot talent). Jestli je to na cil s peti sundery instant pecka za 250% weapon damage + 175 za 15 (resp. 12) rage, tak to bude pecka ;-) |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 14:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rahman
Docela by mne zajimalo, jak presne bude fungovat devastate (41 pts prot talent). Jestli je to na cil s peti sundery instant pecka za 250% weapon damage + 175 za 15 (resp. 12) rage, tak to bude pecka ;-)
ja mam obavu ze sunder za 9 rage > devastate za 12
v ramci aggro/rage
jinak predpokladam ze SS bude stale pouzivan jako instant dmg specka vhodna na burst gain aggra |
Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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Rahman
Moderator
4368 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 17:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Seth
quote:
Originally posted by Rahman
Docela by mne zajimalo, jak presne bude fungovat devastate (41 pts prot talent). Jestli je to na cil s peti sundery instant pecka za 250% weapon damage + 175 za 15 (resp. 12) rage, tak to bude pecka ;-)
ja mam obavu ze sunder za 9 rage > devastate za 12
v ramci aggro/rage
jinak predpokladam ze SS bude stale pouzivan jako instant dmg specka vhodna na burst gain aggra
Who cares about aggro, rec je o damazi ;-) |
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Rahman
Moderator
4368 Posts |
Posted - 23/10/2006 : 17:02:11
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| Navic to mozna bude platit kdyz budes porovnavat threat/rage, ale ne kdyz ti pujde o threat/second za predpokladu, ze mas rage dostatek (treba proto, ze te mlati boss). |
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Rakhen
Junior Member
917 Posts |
Posted - 25/10/2006 : 13:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rahman
Navic to mozna bude platit kdyz budes porovnavat threat/rage, ale ne kdyz ti pujde o threat/second za predpokladu, ze mas rage dostatek (treba proto, ze te mlati boss).
Ony s tím hlavně půjdou dělat zajímavé kousky například při offtankování bosse ;) |
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MegaDeath
Average Member
1989 Posts |
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Seth
Senior Member
2564 Posts |
Posted - 26/10/2006 : 10:15:50
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nezname, nicmene dobrej tip
bohuzel lionheartka je porad kurva lepsi :(
btw co jsem tak cetl tak pro DW nebude do lvl 67 alternativa k LHH a TL
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Seth
Forgotten
bo=protoze!
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